New supplement thread

New supplement thread
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#3511

“ Improved human visuomotor performance and pupil constriction after choline supplementation in a placebo-controlled double-blind study”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4536529/

2g used in this study.

Others studies, like this one:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4096089/#!po=37.5000
don’t seem to mention the choline source, only the dose of choline, which makes it seem that it’s the choline content more than the form that matters for the more physical benefits.


#3512

They should note a source

This one showed nothing significant at all and was well controlled. Very recent


#3513

Notice I said it MAY help. I’d say it is likely inconclusive for now.

Edit: also, the first study I referenced did use bitartrate, and found benefits in a visuomotor aiming task. This is different in nature than the tasks used in the other study you referenced, which seemed to be more geared toward memory than something that involves more physical components. It’s entirely possible it works for some things and not others.


#3514

From the study that noted no effects, discussing the study I referenced that did note effects:

“ Choline is known to improve behavioral functions in healthy, young adults that rely on the cholinergic peripheral nervous system [46]. A perhaps more likely explanation is that the substance choline bitartrate may not affect cholinergic cell receptors in the central nervous system.”


#3515

This coukd explain why it can be used for productive “tasks” I would expect but not for what it is used for in pre workouts.


#3516

“The most obvious explanation for the null-results of previous studies on humans is that choline specifically affects fine motor control rather than ballistic movements and repetitive muscle movements as in cycling or running.”

“The outcomes of this study may be of direct help to, for example, athletes who can benefit from improvements in motor coordination despite slower reaction times.”

I wonder if this means improved mind muscle connection? Perhaps good for people who do bodybuilding style workouts?

" A particularly interesting observation from the present study was that individuals that were more effective (i.e., produced fewer misses) benefitted more from choline supplementation than less effective individuals. While this outcome pattern seems counterintuitive as one would expect more room for improvement in the less efficient individuals, we have observed similar patterns in other cognitive-enhancement interventions (e.g.,53). One possible explanation for such patterns might be that, at least in the cases being tested so far, the pre-interventional performance did not only reflect the current skill level but also the individual degree of short-term plasticity of the skill."

Its utility may depend on the context, yes. I could definitely see it being used for some work/job/etc. related tasks that require ACCURACY over pure speed of reaction or pure memory.


#3517

I actuly tested choline bitartrate to see if it crossed the blood brain barrier a while back.

Hypothesis
Choline bitartrate due to its polarity does not cross the blood brain barrier, therefor it does not have nootropic benefits, or the potential to the standard side effects in the brain

Method
Attempt to induce the brain fog side effect by taking a large dose over a extended period of time. Specifically 10 grams over a week(It was not fun, that stuff is terrible).

Results
No brain fog, meaning it does not effectively cross the BBB.


#3518

: (

Thanks for sharing this!


#3519

Matt! Eat the cookie butter! You’ll feel better!


#3520

I need a new tub soon. Let’s just say I found a new source for my fat macros. ; )


#3521

:wink: happy to be of assistance


#3522

I took 4g Choline Bitartrate per day (split over morning/afternoon doses) for about 3 months. Didn’t notice anything.


#3523

10g a day for a week, or 10g total spread over a week? The former is a huge dose. The latter is a small dose. Also, did you even bother to read the discussion I posted regarding the studies that noted different results? I think it’s a little more controlled and accurate than your test, no offense.


#3524

You sir have never experienced the GOAT
its not longer made


#3525

10 grams a day.

I did not as I was replying to adidasshorts’s earlier post.
It may have effects outside of the brain, but as a choline source, in the way CDP or alpha GPC is used, it is ineffective due to not crossing the blood brain barrier.

Its still good as a betaine precursor, and for liver health

Well they are testing different things, mine was a brute force test of if choline bitartrate crossed the blood brain barrier, the studies you link are looking at if it has athletic or visuomotor benefits.


#3526

WHAT IS THIS?! I need this!


#3527

Ok. My point was just that we can dismiss ALL potential benefits that relate to some level of performance, including some things that may be able to be argued to be somewhat mental performance related in a way lol.

Edit: that should say we CAN’T, not that we can.


#3528

They stopped making it 2 years ago. I still got 2 jars left
The best cookie butter TJ has ever made. Not that knock off garbage from the grocery store. This is the king.


#3529

In many ways we can if the item in question has inconsistent research which that form of choline does. Not dismissing any effects which we know it’s effect on the liver but as a performance aid it is inconsistent at any dose.


#3530

I would think it can be hypothesized that it can effect the mind muscle connection but that still remains to be seen. At any point, there seems to still lack consistent positive research which we see a lot maybe, but enough for me to dismiss it especially when they’re forms available that do work.