Ingredients and Compounds Roundtable

pres are just caffeine, noots, stuff similar to caffeine and lots of pump ingredients these days.
the only stims that will really improve performance are ones with basically no peripheral sides.
those will allow hours of training, less perceived exhaustion, not running out of breath or having a near heart attack.
besides those non-stims will do a lot more for actual performance.

i am going to try a product called hydrapharm hydrazine soon combined with comdemned dna dispatch. the hydrazine supposedly is similar to the origninal craze or detonate but without the overly drugged feeling. i have a feeling it may contain some special ingredient…lol.
a combination like that can really do a lot acutely.

as for ingredients like creatine i wonder why not more people use formulas of creatine nitrate, orotate, malate, phosphate and such. there is some interesting products available.

unfortunately i have little money right now and my toilet blew up and the appartment downstairs is ruined so i never get to do anything i want unless i shoot everyone who bothers me about it. haha

dedicated nutrition did not want to sponsor me their genesis nutrient partitioner. no response. probably crap anyway.
currently arms 17 1/2 inches (up from around 14), db incline flyes 95lbsx6 up from 40lbs, db rows 160lbs for high reps without support on bench or rack but ellbow on knee.

the dna dispatch would surely have effects on nutrient partitioning but there is a lot of stuff i would like to try.

i still wonder wether indigo3g aka high dose c3g is more effective than things like pterostilbene, berberine, gynostemma etc.

Nothing is going to be like OG Craze. Once that is realized, you’ll be happier with what you get from today’s products. Also, the only real benefit of Creatine nitrate is that it also provides nitrates, and the benefits associated with them. It is not superior as far as Creatine is concerned, and I think I saw a study where it was actually less effective act achieving Creatine saturation. I’d prefer to just use something like Creatine monohydrate and add some potassium nitrate to it, that way I can adjust the dose of each to get ideal amounts.


i know about creatine and i would not want it in a preworkout unless it was nitrate, orotate, pyruvate or phosphate bonded.
in regards to longterm supplementation orotic acid and phosphates will have their own benefits and therefore make sense being supplemented in the form of creatine-orotate etc.
of course one can buy everything separate but i actually see no benefit over monohydrate+orotic acid vs. creatine orotate. creatine pyruvate actually has acute performance enhancing effects which neither creatine nor pyruvate do by themselves.

i agree regarding nitrates, there is leucine-nitrate, tmg–nitrate, potassium-nitrate as you said. but if i can get a 500g tub o creatine made of orotate, nitrate, phosphate etc. forms for cheap then i think why not. for me creatine is not something i feel the need to use but rather if it is in there, why not…

as for hydrazine it may contain what craze and detonate did as it is heavily pushed by predator in the UK and they heavily pushed driven sports. the reviews are very similar too. i thought craze was too serotonergic though lacking drive to workout. actually a lower dose (1 scoop or half) with added caffeine worked better for me.
i will report on the hydrazine when it arrives if anyone is interested.

I’ve had hydrazine, it’s legit. I wouldn’t use it more than twice a week though

what does it feel like? can you compare to anything not so “common”? lol

You can train hard, or train long. You can’t do both consistently without overtraining naturally

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Very similar to Dmaa, but it kicks in slowly, I’d say about 45 mins. Very long lasting energy and euphoria, I’m talking like 5 hours. You don’t feel cracked out, but you might crash the first time you use it. I liked it, great for days you want to break PRs

i trained naturally for several years doing full body every other day, 2-3 hours with weights between 5rm and above 1rm (negatives).
if one aquires the work capacity it is not an issue. a workout could have been deadlifts or hack squats 10-20 sets of 3 reps, weighted dips with 1rm+ (assisted concentric) as negatives for 30-50 reps in sets of 4-5, weighted chinups 10-20 sets of 3, one biceps and one triceps exercise.

some people do 2xdaily full body workouts with 100 reps per exercise. it just takes time to adapt to this volume. since a load above the level of conditioning will cause microtraumata the only difference between the first and last rep is subjective. if you try 50 singles with your 5 rep max the soreness will say enough. after a while it becomes easy doing 20x3 with 5rm (this will not work for most right away). the duration is simply the result of the many “clusters”. i agree doing 40 sets of chest cannot be performed intensely past the first few.

So simply, you didn’t train hard, and the mantra stands

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sounds great as most stims kill my endurance and i train to increase the weight all the time so if it helps me do more volume and is a feeling to look forward to (the stim feel) then it sounds great.
are you from the UK?

No, the US. But I know a guy that sells it here, probably the only one.

cool, does it feel a bit different from all the other pres there are? i find that most just kill endurance or make me feel nauseous and bloated from the water/colour/flavour and there have not been any interesting substances in terms of stim for a while (senegalia berlandieri may be interesting as i have used n-methyl-beta-methyl-pea with success before).
i suspect that bauhinia and cymbidium have some kind of pea/amp-derivatives but no idea…

No nausea for me at all, endurance was what surprised me the most. I could of been at the gym for 4 hours, I did stack it with one scoop of mega pre

You’re missing my point regarding the creatine. I agree that there’s no purpose in using creatine itself in a pre-workout. Any benefit of creatine nitrate in the context of a pre-workout would be due to the nitrate. My point is that it’s just so much simpler to use something like potassium nitrate for a pre-workout and use your creatine monohydrate whenever you want. Now you can take them whenever you want, not necessarily at the same time, and dose the two independently to get optimal doses of each. Using CREATINE nitrate pre-workout ins’t what makes sense; using NITRATE pre-workout is, and, personally, I’ll just buy some potassium nitrate caps for $0.15/serving (750mg) and my creatine monohydrate whenever for a few cents a day instead of paying an ultra-premium for creatine nitrate ,which I’ll arguably still have to add more creatine to some time during the day to achieve saturation. Creatine orotate and/or creatine pyruvate are not what I’m talking about here; I’m purely saying that there is really no benefit in creatine nitrate over creatine and nitrate separately, and arguably more than one shortcoming.

As far as leucine nitrate, betaine nitrate, etc, why pay a premium for these when what they’re attached to is arguably not going to be dosed sufficiently to provide any benefits, and arguably isn’t going to provide any benefits to the nitrates. Potassium nitrate, if you know where to look, is by far the cheapest nitrate source, and adding a full dose of creatine, betaine, or leucine to it is also dirt cheap, and now you have full doses of both to use whenever you want, and can dose independently, and you’re not paying a premium for some fancy ingredient. Just my $0.02.

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thanks, sounds great. will stack with dna dispatch. the agmatine has enormous benefits with stimulants and the formula is kind of a pump/endurance/nutrient partitioner to me.
i would like to mix my own combinations more but cant afford it right now (mostly single ingredients so doses can be adjusted, capsules preferably, if possible v-caps without colour and so on.)

i do have powermax xt here which has creatine, tmg, l-alanyl-glutamine, creatinol-o-phosphate, amentoflavone, taurine and some more.

i also have some leftover this and that but it could be a lot better.

i did get your point. in germany the selection and pricing is often not as good and makes little sense. i could not find a pure potassium nitrate supplement anywhere and if so it would probably be more expensive than getting 50 servings of a 10g creatine blend at 50 servings consisting of creatine hcl, nitrate, phosphate, orotate.

i suppose we are not really disagreeing, i am basically saying that creatine for me is not all that relevant but if it is in a preworkout they may as well use a form that is molecularly bond to a krebs cycle chelate or something like it in order to reap some immediate benefits or simply not use creatine in a pre at all…

i would not buy creatine-nitrate specifically but with readymade formulas one sometimes is limited and in such a case i prefer to get 4-5 supplements in one instead of just creatine. (orotic acid, creatine-pyruvate, malic acid are underrated ime).

obviously i would always prefer mixing my own ingredients in the doses i chose.

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Ok. I didn’t know you were in Germany. Here in the US potassium nitrate is dirt cheap as long as you don’t buy it from a bodybuilding/fitness brand. If the only way you can get your nitrate is from Creatine nitrate, then yeah, it’s better than no nitrate haha. I don’t know why people still put Creatine monohydrate in PWOs either.

there are a few products with nitrates, leucine-, arginine-, etc.
unfortunately agmatine has been banned in europe (i wonder wether it is due to its significant effects on neurochemistry and potentiation of and reversal of tolerance to psychoactives as well as anxiolytic, analgesic and antidepressant effects.)

some shops sell stuff regardless but prices are often ridiculously expensive. imagine buying PES high volume for 50USD a tub (without agmatine).

so getting something like dna dispatch for 35USD is actually a good deal here (with agmatine).
i would like to add quite a few more things to it but in terms of a preworkout i feel i will be getting more from it combined with the above mentioned hydrazine (all capsules) regarding allover performance compared to most pres these days, stim or no stim as they seem to be either loaded with 10 different stims or 10 pump ingredients but many just aren’t very balanced in the combination of ingredients.

it is quite annoying as i know more or less what companies spend on raw materials and people underestimate supplements as companies (even if posessing perfect knowledge) need to compromise either in the number of ingredients, quality or dose.
looking at dna dispatch for example, it has a lot of good things but many things could be replaced by something more efective or simply a better dosage used. that would increase the production cost at least 5x. then again i guarantee most would be impressed.

it just angers me seeing products sold for 50USD that are made for 5USD max. when i see things like 500mg alcar in products or 250mg creatinol-o-phosphate…

as i mentioned, dna dispatch looks good but i will post what i would do instead and the product would not have to finaincially undoable, just not be sold for 30 dollars.

|Vitamin C (Ascorbic acid)|100mg|150%|--------------- 1000mg acerola powder (25% vit.c)
|Organic Militaris (Cordyceps ), Ganoderma Lucidum (Reishi), Pleurotus eryngii (King Trumpet), Lentinula edodes (Shiitake ), Hericium erinaceus (Lion’s Mane), and Trametes versicolor (Turkey Tail) (as PeakO2)|1000mg||-----------------2000mg
|Agmatine Sulfate|1000mg|
|-----------------1000mg agmapure
|Citrulline Malate 2:1|1000mg||-------------not necessary
|(GPLC)Glycine Propionyl L-Carnitine HCl|500mg|
|------------3000mg l-carnitine-fumarate
|Beet Powder (root) (Beta vulgaris)|400mg||
|Grape Seed (98% Polyphenols)(Grape seed extract)|250mg||-------------------800mg pomegranate extract (30% punicalagins)
|Coenzyme Q10 (Ubidecarenone)|50mg|
|------200mg ubiquinol
|Vanadyl Sulfate (â©ľ) 20% Vanadium)|15mg|**|------ bis-maltolato-oxo-vanadium

150mg pteropure pterostilbene

Where do you buy it?

no idea why some is black and some not but the left is the formula and on the right what i would like to take ideally (no big deal when you get things wholesale or for the cost the manufacturer pays)