Funny enough, I had the opposite opinion on Chemix Pre. I thought it was a cool product on paper, but it didn’t really work for me and my training style
I don’t agree on the fat burning, however. Specimen lights me up to train like no fat burner ever could
I mean take out the beta alanine, betaine, taurine, glycerol and flavoring, put it into a few small capsules you would have the 90% of the experience.
I don’t think its a bad product, it just has no business costing 1.90$ a serving
I loved it. Hard to gauge test boosters outside of anecdotal evidence, but I can attest to how I felt. More aggressive, libido shot through the roof, and not sure if the flight or this, but my appetite was very obviously increased. I would have loved to have gotten blood work done around the same time, but that just wasn’t the case this time
Ditto this. Nothing spikes my energy like this product does. I did like the Chemix at first, but this I can say I like way more in the energy/focus department. Chemix has a weird build up effect after a while for me. Started to get really bad heart palpitations and anxiety shot through the roof. I threw that tub in the back of a closet
I mean you can dismiss it as edgy but you and your man have pretty consistently fallen back on that in the face of criticism and debate so
Fallen back on what?
I’ve said try it.
To clear up some things regarding l vs dl choline bitartrate mentioned earlier:
The study that noted no benefits with 2-2.5g acute choline bitartrate didn’t specify, but they did say they got it from BulkPowders UK, so finding out what they use would clear that up.
Similarly, the study that found that choline from eggs had a ~4x higher choline response/AUC than an equal dose of choline (in mg) from choline bitartrate got if from BulkPowders Netherlands, so it seems like they both used BulkPowders choline bitartrate. Clearing up wthat BulkPowders uses would then help clarify this discussion a bit, perhaps, shed some light on it.
The study that did not acute improvements in visuomotor performance with 2g choline bitartrate also didn’t specify l or dl.
EDIT: I just checked on Amazon dot co dot uk, on Bulk Powders’ product page for their choline bitartrate, and in a question, they responded:
This product is DL Choline Bitartrate
So perhaps that explains why 2-2.5g didn’t note acute benefits with dl, when 2g with an unspecified form did? Perhaps, quickly assuming dl is only half l, that 2-2.5g would only be 1-1.25g, which is a fair bit less than the 2g that did note benefits. So maybe you do need 2g of the l, or more than 2-2.5g of dl if that is the case?
Guys, I’m genuinely just curious about choline and want to get as many views and opinions as possible, so I’d greatly appreciate Joey’s, and anyone else’s feedback on the matter, and not just to be called a “Goon” (regardless of if the connotation for that is positive, negative, or neutral). Check through my posts, and you’ll see I post a lot regarding nootropics/choline/studies/research, so would definitely like to have the most informed views/opinions/conclusions on the topic as possible, and also update my posts/topics with said information to help other people who may be curious as well.
Yeah the D vs L discussion is very interesting, as for as this:
That’s a great explanation for the discrepancy in the studies. You very well may be onto something there
Thanks. It’s also possible that different tests used to observe/determine benefits may play a role too. I know some studies on AChE-Is, for example, noted significant inhibition or AChE, but no improvements on cognitive aspects measured. IIRC, they hypothesized that the tasks employed may not have been sufficiently demanding to benefit from the supplements, noting similar trends in rodent/animal research if I’m remembering correctly, where benefits were only noted in more challenging tasks. I’ll go back and check that though.
But ideally, I’d love for this to be an actual discussion, preferably based on actual science, since that’s what the article seems to be about, and what Joey’s videos seem to be about. Just being called Goons or being told to try the product don’t really answer these questions. I’m not at all saying the product can’t be solid regardless, but if we are making entire articles and threads about an ingredient, surely we should be able to have in-depth discussions about said ingredient, no?
Shot an email to the researcher asking for clarification on the form of choline bitartrate he used (for the study showing an increase in cognition)
Exactly, and frankly I have every intention of trying it out when I see a good sale for it. And discussing the minutia of ingredients is exactly what this thread is for. There aren’t many people out there with the information to knowledgeably discuss these topics, so having a great group here for discussion is essential.
Good call. If they did indeed use l, that’d start to paint a more clear picture. If not, then we’re back to my other potential hypothesis I suppose, which may still be in play regardless.
Exactly. This seems to be a thread about an ingredient, which means in-depth questions and discussion on said ingredient should be exactly what’s expected and wanted.
Awesome work.
Edit: so Naber’s study used Bulkpowders too?
Here’s the screenshot from Bulkpowders’ UK Amazon product page.
DM me, I’ll send you a bit this weekend
Yes, Naber actually worked on both studies
Thank you very much sir!
Thanks. Yeah, I just saw Naber’s name third on the No Acute Effects study. So if they were both from the same source, there goes that potential explanation. Let me go back and check my other hypothesis. I’l have to re-read the study on AChE-Is and also see the different tests used in the two bitartrate studies that noted seemingly conflicting results.
Shame, I was really hoping that explanation would work out. Looking forward to what you dig up on the AChE-I’s though
