Trying out blackstone lab's trojan horse(sort of)

Supplements Supplement Logs
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So blackstone labs released a stimulant free fat burner a while back called trojan horse, if you just looked at it without understanding the science you would likely come to the conclusion that its a bunch of ineffective random ingredients thrown together, kind of like I did until I dug into it.
Well essentially the ingredients work together to create an allegedly very effective product through a rather complicated process I will kind of explain
Long story short Hydroxycitric acid blocks the normal way your body metabolizes pyruvate which is the end product of glucose metabolism, and in short this sets off a few chain reactions that result in allot of energy being used to convert it to malate, go though a cycle of converting it into something that just gets converted back into pyruvate, and limiting some key blocks in producing ATP, which your body responds to by breaking down fat, its a huge complicated interesting process and if you are interested in the science check out the video below explaining it.
Behind The Muscle: Trojan Horse Explained with the Guerrilla Chemist - YouTube

Now it took me a fucking long time to find this study as its nearly 20 years old, they don’t link it in their marketing and only mention it once saying the people in it lost 20 pounds in 4 weeks and don’t mention what exactly they used in the study.
I finally found it here, I thought it was a follow up and there was another study but this one covers that here.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10416948
I also found a free fully readable version here.
https://www.scribd.com/document/126926104/Pyruvate-and-hydroxycitrate-carnitine-may-synergize-to-promote-reverse-electron-transport-in-hepatocyte-mitochondria-effectively-uncoupling-the-oxi
Pilot study covered on page 412-414
Long story short in the study they had 12 grams of pyruvate 1.5 grams of HCA 250 mg of carnitine split into 3 doses though the day, and lost an average of 1.5 KG a week, with 2.3 KG of fat loss, or if you aren’t a filthy communist 3.3 pounds of weight, and 5.06 pound of fat per week, with some calorie restriction and a draconian exercise program of 20 minutes of brisk walking, per day, every day. Needless to say the results are really impressive and are likely free from corporate taint given its age.

Now blackstone formula will work for this but it would only get you 20 days for 30-40$ depending on where you buy it, me being massively cheap decided to just buy the components and use that instead, Though given its price it didn’t save me a huge amount(assuming I could find it for 30$ with no shipping I saved about 3$), but did get me some more HCA per dose and let me use my ALCAR that I had lying around. This is why the title has “(sort of)” since I am just using their formula instead of actuly using their product.

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If any of you want to do what I did for some reason here is my guide so far.
If you have gym buddies or don’t mind buying allot of the stuff bulk supplements does have some nice discounts for large purchases, or rather shitty pricing for small purchases.
Buying the dose for a 60 serving run(240 grams) will cost you 18$ for one run, 14.50 per run if you buy 2, 11.50 per for 4.
As for the HCA the best deal I could find was this, at 750 mg at 95% purity, it also gives you the chromium(10$, last 60 days or 30 days on a full run)
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XWGM26J/
I’m just using primaforce ALCAR, I already had this so I didn’t count it. The original used LCLT, which I am not certain has any benefits over ALCAR, its just been studied more for recovery.

Now on to taste, I had heard pyruvate tasted bad, but there is something intensely disturbing about knowing something will be bad, then smelling it and it smelling distinctly like maple syrup.

It isn’t actually that bad but there is a trick to it, along with everything else detailed below

Calcium pyruvate
This doesn’t dissolve well in water. Do not try to mix it in water. it taste worse and is hard to actuly consume like that, instead take a sip of something, add it to your mouth and swallow, wash it down, there is a mildly unpleasant maple syrupy taste, but it not horrid.
ALCAR, this has a intense sour somewhat akin to cituline mixed with a battery acid bite, don’t take this straight, add it to something and drink, it will have a minor sour but its barely noticeable like that. Its a strong flavor on its own but it doesn’t keep it when diluted
HCA, just take it in a capsule, there’s no reason not to given the dose.

I am already a few days in, with an initial non-restricted diet that I am going to transition into a more diety diet.
Started off doing 4 grams once a day but after looking at the study I am going to swap to the full 12 grams, which is going to make this allot shorter but it should give a slightly better replication of the study.
Along with this I am going to be taking some other supplements which I will detail as I use them. Fasted cardio with Yombie is going to be a likely candidate.

Now I don’t have a great scale so the estimate for the starting weight is going to be 182(This is not lean 182 btw).

As for the diet plan, vaguely moderate everything fat being lower then everything else, I don’t see much value personally in strict planning, I may do a short (3-7 day) fast, my advise for fasting is to treat the first two days as a sprint into ketosis, if you are burning carbs while fasting for a while you are going to burn muscle along with it.

Forgive the messiness of this first post I will come back and pretty it up once I get some nice sleep in

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Take some ALCAR too! :joy:

This is actually pretty interesting. As you said, it really did look like a bunch of random crappy ingredients thrown together. I’m really interested in how this goes. I’ll check out all the sources you posted soon. Just from your brief explanation, it sounds somewhat counterintuitive. If hydroxycitric acid messes with metabolism of glucose to pyruvate, then I’d assume supplying pyruvate would counteract some of that effect. Anyway, like I said, I’ll check those links out, and I’ll be interested to see your thoughts!

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Sorry it doesn’t prevent pyruvate from being formed from glucose, it prevents pyruvate from being metabolized into fat, which means it increases the amount of the other metabolites such as acetyl CoA(used in energy production via the krebs cycle) and oxaloacetate, which waste energy by being metabolized into in to malate, or goes into a cycle of being metabolized into pyruvate, which gets metabolized into oxaloacetate, which loops taking up energy and generating a small amount of heat.

Note I am giving the laymans version, there’s a bit more to this but it gives a basic idea.

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Day 0
weighed in at 182, took 4 grams pyruvate, did about 5 miles(I normally do about 1) on the exercise bike fueled by half a scoop of nutrabio’s pre, the stuff is awesome. This is the day I wrote the initial post, and got to read the full study.

After reading the study I decided to change my dosing strategy, I am now going to take 2 split doses, 1 capsule of HCA and 6 grams Calc pyruvate twice a day, this will last about 18 days before I run out.

Day 1
Today I took a scoop of BSN’s NO XPLODE XE EDGE, which you know is hardcore because it spells explode with only one E, and it has the word edge in it
I got this at grocery outlet for 9.99 and it had a green apple flavor which is a easy sell to me. The flavor is sadly kind of meh.

With it I took some Yohimbine HCL. I don’t have a precise enough scale to actually measure it but my preferred dose with Y are enough to give the Australian parliament a
collective heart attack. I again don’t know the amount but its definitely in the double digits. I would like to get some capsules of it to see how it compares but I am not spending 10$ for a few workouts worth.

I heavily recommend Y HCL over any type of bark, Y is extremely intense for some people and you do not want all the other alkaloids Y bark has with it. I haven’t tried it alone but given my experience with jay cutler’s legend pro I am not taking high doses of Y bark.
Shameless link to that for the achievement.

As for the effects on me, the anxiousness isn’t too bad, I handle drugs in general very well, something my dentist hates me for. It only makes me slightly anxious but gives me more of an aggressive, qsuedo pissed off feeling, though that might have something to do with me listening to system of a down while typing this.

Did some fasted cardio(about 3 miles) and had a bagel with cream cheese, avocado and salt post workout. I highly recommend Y with fasted cardio, ideally keeping the fast for a few hours after but I didn’t have time for that today.

Finally I took the pyruvate a bit before the workout, it has the texture of undissolved sugar and can be hard to get down.
Weighted in at 180 preworkout, this wasn’t a heavily controlled weighting so don’t get too excited, but if it keeps tomorrow then that is pretty notable.

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Day 3
180 again, seems its sticking. 3 miles cardio, 2 small baked potatoes post workout, also had a bag of sunflower seeds and a small bowl of ice-cream.(yum vanilla)

If anyone is wondering no this log is not sponsored, nor does it have to do with the contest they started a week after I order this stuff. I just had an interesting in the science behind the product.
As for my opinion on Blackstone, they broadly seem to have a good philosophy in making products, most of them just aren’t my thing.
I don’t think prohormones should be on the market. I think steroids and drugs in general should be legal but due to the health effects should require someone to actually talk to a doctor or at least know what they are doing.
Their natural muscle builders are far too rich for my blood, even if they look interesting.
I don’t really like ultra high stim products, and am not interested in getting high.
Their stimulant free preworkouts have glycerol which is a near instant thumbs down but seem well dosed enough
You can’t really criticize protein too much… well, aside from the line “a protein unlike any you’ve tried before.” for their 3-whey blend. That is a line that truly belongs in a parody.
Their stimulant fat burners are probably good but I have enough stimulants.
The only product I really have an interest in was Trojan horse due to the science behind it, interested in seeing what the results are.

To quote one of their previously sponsored athletes “The Leaning Tower of Pisa wasn’t built in a day”.

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Wow. Now this is how it’s done. I’m sharing this thread to Facebook and Twitter.

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@Mike
1514744380935

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Very interesting so far, I tried TJ for about 15 days (my brothers used tub) and saw some results and have another one I’m gonna start next month. I’m eager to see if using the bulk supplements in this manner is as effective as the actual product. Good luck!

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Day 3 addendum
Did an additional 7 miles, total 10, running away the pain…
This is kind of an absurdly large amount for me, I don’t know if its because I didn’t actuly try doing this much before or it gives some kind of an energy boosting effect but I am getting allot of cardio done.

Thanks!
I don’t see any reason it wouldn’t be unless Blackstone is sneaking meth in as a natural flavor.

Taking the pyruvate is kind of rough, its doable but the texture is bleh, I do somewhat wish I had an actual tub of the stuff, if you can find it for 30$ its actually pretty competitive, likely due to bulk supplements having a pricing model I hate.

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Day 4
Rest day! tried doing the normal cardio but my legs were not having it, which I suppose is fair, I’ve been doing a kind of obscene amount recently
Got my amazon sample package and decided to give myself a profile picture here, drawn by my girlfriend, I like the colors on it.

The sample box has quite a bit of stuff, even without the 10$ credit its good

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Despite their appearance the nuun active packets are not condoms
Sample packets of allot of good stuff, the new endorush looks really solid packing 3 grams of pump ingredients backed up by an entire gram of creatine nitrate, and 3 regular grams of creatine, lots of stims as well @PricePlowStaff you guys really should cover it, its regularly under a 1$ a serving(as low as 20.75 at time of this writing) and has a really solid formula for the price.

I also got BPI’s “BEST PRE” which might be alright but I have no way of knowing, still a keto pre might be pretty useful once I start the fast. If they opened up the formula and priced it at like 20$ for 30 serving I might give it the approval.
Hydroxycut super elite, at first I thought it had 8 mg of yohimibe, turns out its 8 mg yohimbe bark, which is a shame I would have liked the 8 mg. Rest of the profile looks meh, but I will try it anyway.
Next is the proteins, I am most excited for the quest bars due to how much fiber and other stuff they contain, Really I think protein bars should judged in at least 2 categories, the good tasting candy bar ones, and the healthy full of fiber ones.
The combat powder I tested and I had trouble mixing it till I got out the milk frother, which worked like a charm.
The mybar sample was good but not as amazing as it was hyped to be.
The almonds were bad, lacking any real flavor.
I’ll give my thought on the stuff as I have them

Also welcome everyone joining us from the facebook post, I will have some more neat sciencey stuff in the coming weeks.

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Day 5 and 6
Whey and oats was tasty, can’t say I would reccomend it over the normal whey but if it seems like your thing go for it.
Quest Hero, This stuff is awesome its not a candy bar but its very close, and I would say the priceplow review was too negative. Just be ready for it being a bit tough like the quest cereal bars are
Endorush, the flavor was great as were the effects, the arginine/citrulline combo has some interesting synergies since it stops the citrulline from being converted into ornithine. I liked the energy on it and I am tempted to buy some, BSN seems to be trying to make a c4 extreme killer and I would say they have done so.
Vega stuff, bleh, bar was ok drink is bad.
nuun was also rather meh.

Still weighting in around 180, I am partly thinking its either water retention or just daily fluctuation as given my current diet/exercise I should not be maintaining actual weight, never the less I am going to start writing it all down.
I’m also tempted to start taking creatine/glycerine again but I don’t want to screw up the measurements, so I’l wait for the bulk.
Seems we have some food that need to be eaten in the next few days, after that I am going to attempt a fast.

Back down to fairly low level cardio 1-3 miles. Seems the insanity a while back has cooled down.

Since I promised some sciency stuff

Yohimbine, one of my favorite single ingredient fat burners, and easily one of the biggest love hate ingredients in supplements, its very effective and depending on the person has allot of nice effects but the issue with it is that it increases noradrenaline, which makes it very effective at giving people panic attacks.

Now you will generally know which category you fall into when you take it, I would advise a low to moderate dose the first time around and working your way up.

Also I would suggest a product using pure Yohimbine HCL, unstandardised, or poorly standardised extracts of the bark I consider as playing Russian roulette with side effects. Y bark has allot of alkaloids in it and I’m not sure you want most of them.

As for fat burning it has several interesting mechanisms, such as slightly targeting waist and tight fat due to a higher density of the receptors it works on(a2-adrenergic).

It is best used in a fasted state, as its effects on insulin seem to cancel out its fat burning benefits.
in this case fasted means insulin fasted, so carbs and protein, fat doesn’t cancel out the benefits.
It is synergistic with caffeine and exercise, so its advisable to take it with those.

It is also ketogenic, and enchants ketone production when in ketosis.

It interestingly does not negatively affect sleep.

As for dosing the general dose is 2-8 milligrams, tweak to preference, you can go up higher, .2 milligrams per kg(.09 per pound) of body weight is generally safe but be careful when mixing it with other stuff.

Finally if you are taking any prescription/over the counter drug, or do not have a good record of heart health talk to your doctor. Y interacts with allot of stuff.

As for Alpha Yohimbine(or Rauwolscine) It seems to have a slightly different pharmacological profile then Y and in some ways seems more effective, for this 1 mg is a good starting dose, I can’t comment too much on it but it looks like a good ingredient and I would like to try it at some point as I am still trying to figure out if it has more or less side effects.

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Day 7
Realized I had some berberine lying around from a 2 for 2$ sale that happened decided to try it out with a very high carb meal of 4 small potatoes and a bagel(a little over 100 carb total).
To early to really give opinions but it looks promising
Did normal cardio also got a bag of pistachios from the store, 2$ for quite a bit of them, grocery outlet is awesome.

Going to start transitioning into a quesdo keto diet in preparation for the fast starting monday.

Now fasting has a very long history as a religious practice with many variations, In this case the fast only relates to food, well calories specifically, I am not removing sleep nutrients or water, while it may have value as a spiritual practice I am going for the health benefits and to test how Trojan horse works with this.

As for health benefits
Because of the lowered insulin your body will have improved insulin sensitivity, this goes the same for cholesterol and arterial stiffness.

The temporary lack of protein/calories will trigger autophagy, a bodily process where the body breaks down and recycles cells and tissue, along with triggering a state of ketosis due to the lack of carbohydrates, which mike has covered fairly well for its benefits. My favorite is the increased levels of BHB result in increased levels of BDNF(Brain derived neurofactor).

Now the autography, ketosis and energy restriction give fasting a rather potent anticancer effect as cancer cells are more prone to starving themselves, many cancers that grow enough to become a problem have a large preference to glucose(warburg effect).

Finally when done right fasting can be a very muscle sparing way of losing weight, it also has the long term benefit of reducing ghelin levels, which reduces feelings of hunger.

Now to start you are ideally going to want a source of electrolytes(salt and such) and a multivitamin. The first 3 days can be difficult as you will feel hungry, just remember the feeling will go away with time(it will be worst at times you normally eat, but passes after a few hours). Treat this period as a sprint into ketosis, do cardio for a while everyday to burn though your stored glucose, if your body is relying too heavily on glucose it will break down protein to get it.

Once you get past the first few days it should become much easier, drink water take electrolytes and your vitamins, If you can find a way to get fiber in that is a great idea, you can have a few calories but you should stay under ~50 a day, your preworkout/fish oil should be fine but stay away from BCAAs and the like.

When you finally decide to break your fast, depending on how long it was, start slow with maybe an once of vegetables, now is a great time for probiotic foods. Now unless you go on a very long fast without a multivitamin(which I don’t recommend) you should be fine. This can also be a good time to start up healthier eating habits.

Just to be sure, if you do go on a very long fast without supplementation your body can run low on phosphate and other electrolytes, insulin will reduce them further, which can result in low serum electrolytes which can kill you. In the event you are in this situation go to a doctor and ask for medical advice. They will likely give you electrolytes and b vitamins for a few days while slowly introducing food.

Also in the event that you have struggled with disordered eating in the past fasting might not be a good idea unless you are in sound mental health.

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Nice log. I’m intrigued by Trojan Horse. Also, the berberine is legit. I’ve taken Glycolog from Blackstone and RPG Fromm Redcon1. Both are quality supps for carb heavy meals.

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Thanks!, Ya I’ve been reading more on GDAs and I am liking what I am seeing, when I finally lose the weight I am going to try running one.

day 8/9
Not too much to report, did cardio finished up some food, had very odd sleeping going into today(day 9) since i got interrupted the first attempt at just the point where iv gotten too much sleep to go back to sleep but not enough to actuly be rested. slept again later but still feel tired.

Ended up seeing a very nice price on thyrotwin(giant sports, 15$ on amazon) and decided to pick it up to give it a try, I will update on how powerful the appetite suppression is later.
Edit just got it, I appreciate them using the smaller capsules.

They also had a 75% off sale on a product called “starb6rn” which looks pretty good, 50 mg of paradoxine and no stims so I can actuly get a read on it without 270 mg of caffeine messing that up. 6$(24$ normally)

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In case its unclear I post in the mid morning so each day is split into two.
Day 9, had a few protein bars since they were on sale at the store, likely wasn’t the best idea, thyrotwin seems mildly effective
Muscle milk’s protein bar(carmel) and two of muscle tech’s(cinnamin and peanut butter chocolate)
Nitrotech’s bars were both kind of bad, the cinnamon one lacked flavor and had that vomit aftertaste I see with muscle pharm for some reason
MM’s bar was good

Day 10
Started out pretty good did the cardio, caffeine and yohimbe really make a big performance difference.(6 miles total)
Also started the fast, off to a bad start given I had the protein bars, resulted in a lot of hunger I ended up breaking down and having an avocado with some cheese, it was decent. The hunger on the first (real) day was intense, should get better over the next few, thyrotwin might be helping but I would not say its “forget to eat” tier
Going to try out “BEST PRE” tomorrow since its too late for that much caffeine

Day 11
Best pre mixed well, bit of residue on the cup, the flavor isn’t bad but not quite my thing, pineapple-y ick.
Its not easy on the stomach but its not the worst thing iv had, 2 capsules of lipodrene takes that spot.
Did an easy 2 miles, Yohimbe has a pretty notable thermic effect, I go from having a jacket on at 50 degrees to wanting to take it off after a mile.
Still taking the pyruvate, still not great, I would recommend actual Trojan horse over it but it looks like the flavors are getting pretty bad reviews. To be fair pyruvate seems like it would be a bitch to flavor.

Weighted in after noticing the very very early beginnings of abs, decreased fat on the… corners?
The area were the abs end and the abdominal obliques begin.
Weighted in at ~179 after a drink, after weighting in around 181-182 for several days, likely due to me not getting an accurate starting weight. Not majorly impressive but its a pretty nice start.

The starb6rn got delayed, but that got me a free amazon prime month so that was nice. Amazon is great.

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Day 12/13/14
Ended up having to take a break from the fasting due to life.
Day 12 biked 1 mile walked 4 in some not so great shoes, ended up screwing up my legs, but they are recovering. Had a few potatos and tacobell with my mom.
Day 13
Continued the break from the fast so I could heal my legs, they still hurt quite a bit. no cardio.
Day 14
Grocery outlet had a sale on BSN’s sytha crisp, they are pretty good. Had a road trip up to one of the bigger cities so lots of unnecessary junk-food.
Day 15
Legs feel better going to get back to dieting and cardio tomorrow, potato’s small bowl of icecream, a bagel and some lentil “soup”(it was pretty much just seasoned lentils).

I am working on something but don’t have too much right now so here is my extremely simple baked potato recipe.

Wash a potato
Place in microwave
Microwave for 5 minutes
Flip
Microwave again for 5 minutes
Season as you like(sour cream and cheese)
Eat
Ta-Da

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Gave the conclusion its own thread
After the 15th day I didn’t really see any notable results and didn’t have much to say, results were a grand total of 5 pounds lost after the 6 weeks conclusion thread here

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Not shocked at all