So can we get a TL;DR pic of the supplement facts?
Edit: only 3 ingredients revealed, or am I missing something? And the three we already knew were in it for the past week or two? On the 19th Stack3d said it’d have 500mg CDP-Choline, and mentioned it’d have NooLVL, which we knew would be dosed at the 1.6g that’s been studied (it’s 1.5g Nitrosigine with an extra 100mg inositol). So the only “reveal” is the dose of caffeine? And we pretty much knew it’d have caffeine in some amount.
Also, and here’s my usual critique/commentary:
I’m not quite sure I agree with your comments on your comments about the dose of caffeine for gaming and cognitive benefits, at least I don’t think it’s quite that simple (in other words, there are potential reasons for using higher doses of caffeine for gaming/cognition/etc.). Yes, lower doses of caffeine have been shown to have cognitive benefits, and high doses can make people jittery (but I’d wager there’ll probably be some theanine in the formula), but there’s also some research suggesting that, for people who consume larger amounts of caffeine regularly, higher amounts of caffeine may be needed for the cognitive benefits of caffeine.
For example, in undergraduate students who only consumed a median of 42.5mg/day caffeine, 200mg and 400mg caffeine improved vigilance and executive control of visual attention with 200mg seeming to be more “optimal” than 400mg.
But in a study on undergraduate students who consumed a median of 592.3mg/day caffeine, caffeine only enhanced vigilance and executive control of visual attention at 400mg, not at 200mg.
So, if you consume a decent amount of caffeine daily, you may well need higher doses to get acute cognitive/performance benefits, even non-physical/athletic benefits.
There’s no Theanine
Really? That’s quite the interesting decision. You’ve seen the full formula?
Again, we’re all entitled to our own views on formulation, and more variety in the market is always good for consumers, but the research on caffeine + theanine seems like it’d be a no-brainer for a gaming supplement:
Given to undergraduate volunteers (18-34 years old), 150mg of caffeine in isolation improved reaction time, perceptions of fatigue, and rapid visual information processing. The addition of 250mg of L-theanine was able to preserve the above benefits of caffeine and improve alertness and further improve reaction time while reducing the ratings of headaches which were increased with caffeine in isolation.
Given to healthy adults (mean age 28.3 years), 50mg of caffeine improved subjective alertness and accuracy on an attention-switching task. A combination of 50mg of caffeine and 100mg of l-theanine was able to improve accuracy and speed on an attention-switching task as well as reduce susceptibility to distracting information in a memory task.
A combination of 40mg caffeine and 97mg l-theanine given to university students (mean age 21.2 years) was able to significantly improve accuracy during task switching, reduce self-reported tiredness, and improve self-reported alertness.
200mg l-theanine given to undergraduate students (age 20-25) was able to lessen the increase in anxiety, stress, and heart rate that resulted from a mental arithmetic task.
200mg l-theanine given to University Students (age 18-20 years) with high anxiety was able to increase visual attentional performance, improve reaction time (reaction time decreased-improved- in subjects taking l-theanine after 15, 30, and 60 minutes, with a maximum improvement of over 15% while reaction time actually increased-worsened- in subjects who received placebo after 15 and 30 minutes, with a maximum worsening of over 5%) and reduce heart rate during visual attention and audio response tests. In the same study, subjects with low anxiety who received l-theanine also noted decreases-improvements- in reaction time at 15, 30, and 60 minutes, with a maximum improvement of over 5%, while low-anxiety subjects who received placebo actually noted increased-worsened- reaction times at 15, 30, and 60 minutes, with a maximum worsening of about 5%.
It’s called click bait bro lol
It’s pretty simple, Ghost doesn’t want to overstim the consumers. The same could be said for weight training, way higher doses have higher benefits. Doesn’t mean it’s a smart choice as a brand.
The lutein ingredient MUST be used daily. NooLvl does not.
Yes I have.
As a nerdy gamer myself, it’s actually similar to the concoctions I’ve been making myself at home.
I’m talking about the specific claim of “that’s not where you should be going… if you need that much caffeine to game… you’re most likely lacking elsewhere.” I was expanding on that claim. Unless you mean consuming high levels of caffeine daily is “lacking elsewhere.”
Also, the thing about not needing the high “mg/kg” doses for cognitive benefits; I was pointing out that this may not be true in people who consume large amounts of caffeine regularly, which is a lot of people.
Also, if you don’t want to overstim consumers, you’d think the addition of theanine would be an even more obvious inclusion no? Tons of research showing not only synergistic effects with caffeine, but attenuation of negative effects caffeine can have. Taurine has some research showing it can reduce negative effects of execessive caffeine consumption too, so that could be another worthwhile addition if overstimulation from caffeine is a concern.
Here’s a really interesting and relatively comprehensive review of various doses of caffeine for cognitive performance, from an interesting source (Institute of Medicine (US) Committee on Military Nutrition Research):
Numerous studies of the effects of different caffeine dosages on various aspects of cognitive performance have been conducted in both civilian and military settings. For example, Dimpfel et al. (1993) measured the effects of placebo, 200, and 400 mg of caffeine on human electroencephalogram (EEG) patterns at rest and during mental concentration tests. In addition to the finding that the effects of caffeine can be quantified with EEG spectral densities, they also found that subjects achieved the best results on concentration tests when given 200 mg of caffeine. This included both the number of problems solved per unit time and the percentage of correct solutions. Results of treatment with 400 mg of caffeine tended to be below those of the placebo condition. Foreman et al. (1989) compared the effects of placebo, 125, and 250 mg of caffeine on cognitive performance using memory tests and the Stroop test. They found no effect of caffeine on performance in either test, but there was a trend toward fewer words recalled in the short-term memory test with 250 mg of caffeine. However, Lieberman et al. (1987) found improved performance on four-choice reaction time tests and the Wilkinson vigilance test at all levels of caffeine evaluated (0, 32, 64, 128, and 256 mg) with no effect on self-rated feelings of tension or anxiety.
Warburton (1995) examined the effects of 0, 75, and 150 mg of caffeine on attentional, verbal memory, nonverbal working memory, and problem-solving speed and accuracy in 18 men who were regular coffee drinkers (no more than 3 cups/day). Caffeine improved speed and accuracy on attentional tests (visual information processing) in a dose-dependent manner. Similar to the data of Foreman et al. (1989), there was no effect of caffeine on immediate verbal recall; however there was a dose-related effect of caffeine on delayed verbal recall. Caffeine also significantly improved the accuracy, but not the speed, of problem solving. Rogers et al. (1995) found significant improvement in reaction time with 70 mg of caffeine compared to placebo. Similarly, Lorist and Snel (1997) found that caffeine at 3 mg/kg (210 mg for a 70 kg person) given to habitual users improved reaction time and decreased false alarm rates in selective attention tasks. Streufert et al. (1997) evaluated the effects of 400 mg of caffeine added to regular caffeine consumption in moderate to heavy caffeine users (400–1,000 mg/day) and found faster responses to incoming information.
In sleep-deprived individuals, similar to those engaging in sustained operations, caffeine at levels of approximately 100–600 mg appears to improve performance (e.g., vigilance, mood, higher cognitive functions) with few acute adverse behavioral effects; some of the positive effects may persist for 8–10 hours (Gander et al., 1998; Kuznicki and Turner, 1986; Lieberman, 1999; Mitchell and Redman, 1992; Reyner and Horne, 2000; Rogers et al., 1995; Smith, 1999; Walsh et al., 1990, 1995). Even individuals who do not normally consume caffeine appear to obtain these caffeine-related positive effects.
An earlier report to the military concerning use of caffeine as a performance enhancer (IOM, 1994) indicated that two of the primary issues still needing resolution in providing caffeine to military personnel were the appropriate carrier to provide the supplement and the amount required to achieve the desired benefit in personnel both habituated and nonhabituated to caffeine. The data reviewed in this report indicate that caffeine will improve cognitive performance regardless of habituation status and thus there is no need to have different dose levels. Caffeine doses between 100 and 600 mg that can be self-selected would be adequate for all personnel.
TL;DR: there’s plenty of justification for low and high doses of caffeine for gaming/cognition/etc, and I respect the decision to use a lower amount in this product. My issue was in claiming that it’s “not necessary” to use higher doses (as it may be for some people), or that there’s probably something wrong with other variables for people that do (which may not be the case for people who consume high doses of caffeine regularly, which is probably most people on this forum, considering how many of use use PWOs).
I think formulating based on what SOME consumers might be already consuming is a weak argument personally. This is formulating for the masses, so I’d be looking at normal consumers. Maybe higher end gamers need more, but like we said in the video GHOST isn’t marketed to hardcore anything. You could also say their pre, pump, etc aren’t super aggressive for bodybuilders. This is the niche where they’re in.
Personally, (and again this is all subjective, something I that I think gets missed when you rely too heavily on data) there’s nowhere near enough caffeine to warrant theanine for me. At this dose of caffeine I think theanine would be a negative. Just my perspective and what a lot of formulators are saying now with the over-usage of theanine. I only see theanine needed over 400mg caffeine.
Again, I’m not claiming they should have used more caffeine, I’m saying that it’s not entirely accurate what was said in the video. I could see how I didn’t explain myself well though there. I can 100% see why they kept the caffeine low, but it’s not correct to say that lower doses of caffeine aren’t ever needed for cognitive benefits, as they may be for a lot of people, and it’s not necessarily correct to say that if you use/need higher doses of caffeine for gaming/cognition that it’s indicative of other problems or variables. That is all.
And, again, we all have our own takes and philosophy here. I personally enjoy upping the caffeine content slightly and adding a bit of theanine. For example, I prefer 200-300mg caffeine and 100mg theanine to 150mg caffeine alone. But some people like 150-200mg caffeine with 200mg theanine, so there’s even a wide range of doses and ratios that people prefer. You seem to be on one end of the spectrum (no theanine without very large doses of caffeine), while I’m more in the middle (moderate doses of caffeine with low-moderate doses of theanine), while some people are on the other end (low-moderate doses of caffeine with moderate-high doses of theanine). There is no one “correct” answer, I admit that.
I fully acknowledge that there’s more than one way to skin a cat. But I’m not only basing this on research/data, not that I’m saying you were suggesting I was, only that people do. I actually do have a lot of experience with caffeine and theanine, as well as experience formulating products with various amounts of caffeine/theanine.
And since the video was REALLY focusing heavily on the NooLVL study on gamers, I’d figure that I’d mention the ton of research on caffeine and theanine that is clearly relevant to gamers, even if they didn’t actually use gaming/gamers in the study. We’re not really going to claim that acute improvements in reaction time and rapid visual information processing isn’t going to necessarily benefit gamers just because the study didn’t specifically using gaming as the testing methodology, right? Or improved attention-switching ability? Clearly these benefits would apply to gamers.
As for a low dose of theanine being a negative here, I disagree, but without seeing the rest of the formula, I can’t say for sure much of anything TBH. If there’s other ingredients that can provide a calm, focused feeling, like maybe sceletium or some adaptogens, then there becomes less potential “need” for theanine. But, again, we’re all entitled to our opinions and philosophies.