@muscleupcrohn Youāll probably enjoy this one. Shawn is a legend
Very off the cuff, not a lot of planning for this one, but weāve been testing these berberines up and down
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Iāll definitely check it out tonight brother! Thanks for letting me know.
Bererine is the same as Berberine?
I hate you
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The hose Iād stick in your mouth would be attached to my heart Ben 
Nobody will understand this ongoing analogy and this sounds so gay
I know, I could have made it worse too
So I just watched this, very interesting, and I wanted to point out that Iām not exactly sold on Metformin for healthy/normal adults who exercise regularly, and neither is Dr. Rhonda Patrick, just to point out that someone a lot smarter and more educated than me seems to agree. So this video was definitely interesting to me, to hear Shawnās input on Berberine relative to Metformin. Iād definitely use berberine over Metformin as a healthy/normal person who exercises regularly. We at least have studies on berberine in healthy/normal exercising subjects showing it has benefits. Plus being available OTC is nice for sure.
Regarding Metformin, we KNOW the myriad of benefits regular exercise has, both for the brain and the body, while the effects of Metformin in healthy/normal subjects are less known, and the effects of Metformin combined with exercise are even less known, and what is known isnāt necessarily all that promising.
Now, donāt get me wrong, Metformin has legitimate medical uses for sure, but Iām talking about people who are āhealthy/normalā and not using it to treat/help with any actual issue, but just for general health/longevity purposes.
Anyway, hereās an interesting read (TL;DR after the excerpt):
Although informative, rapamycin and caloric restriction are not yet considered treatment strategies for humans. On the other hand, mounting evidence indicates that long-term exercise training is a bona fide treatment to extend human healthspan (Blair et al. 1989; Cartee et al. 2016; Physical Activity Committee 2018; Zampieri et al. 2015; Williams 2001). Moderate-to-vigorous intensity physical activity is inversely related to premature mortality, cardiometabolic disease, immobility, and several cancers (Physical Activity Committee 2018). Exercise training induces multiple adaptations, including increased cardiorespiratory fitness (CRF), insulin sensitivity, skeletal muscle size, and function. In apparently healthy individuals, each 3.5 ml kgā1 minā1 increase in CRF was associated with an 11%, 16%, and 14% reduction in all-cause, cardiovascular disease, and cancer mortality (Imboden et al. 2018). Insulin resistance is associated with a myriad of age-related chronic conditions, including T2D, CVD, and frailty (Barzilay et al. 2007; Bonora et al. 2002; Facchini et al. 2001; Petersen et al. 2003). Age-related loss of muscle mass is also associated with the decline of CRF, insulin action, dependence, and mobility (Goodpaster et al. 2001, 2006; Reed et al. 1991; Reid and Fielding 2012; Reid et al. 2008). How then does metformin interact with exercise training to influence CRF, insulin sensitivity, and skeletal muscle mass?
We recently completed a randomized double-blind aerobic exercise training study in individuals that had one risk factor for T2D but were otherwise healthy. Half of the individuals (n = 27) received 1500ā2000 mg of metformin with the exercise training, while the other half (n = 26) received a placebo (Konopka et al. 2018). When metformin was added to exercise training, the exercise-induced improvement in skeletal muscle mitochondrial respiration, CRF, and whole-body insulin sensitivity were attenuated (Konopka et al. 2018). In addition, some individuals actually had decrements in whole-body insulin sensitivity. Our results are similar to other studies that show metformin attenuated the exercise-induced increase in CRF and prevented the increase in insulin sensitivity in non-diabetic individuals (Malin et al. 2012; Sharoff et al. 2010). These effects do not seem to be unique to aerobic exercise training. Preliminary indications from a double-blind placebo-control clinical trial in the elderly (Long et al. 2017) show that metformin may also blunt the hypertrophic response to resistance exercise training measured by DXA, and muscle density measured by computed tomography (personal communication).
Due to the close relationship of CRF, insulin action, and skeletal muscle mass to mortality, morbidity, and quality of life, the antagonistic effect of metformin on CRF, insulin sensitivity, and skeletal muscle mass in non-diabetic young (Braun et al. 2008; Sharoff et al. 2010), middle-aged (Malin et al. 2012), and older (Konopka et al. 2018; Peterson et al. 2018) adults raises important questions about the efficacy of metformin to extend healthspan. Indeed, several important points need to be further examined to understand: are the inhibitory effects of clinical doses of metformin on some important physiological adaptations only apparent when challenged with exercise, does the range of metabolic healthāeven within individuals free of chronic diseaseāinfluence the positive or negative impact of metformin treatment, and what are the long-term implications of metformin treatment on healthspan when started prior to the onset of chronic disease."
TL;DR:
-We KNOW exercise is good for health/longevity
-Benefits of exercise include improved cardiorespiratory fitness, insulin sensitivity, and muscle size and function.
-A study found that 1500-2000mg metformin reduced the beneficial effects of aerobic exercise on skeletal muscle mitochondrial respiration, cardiorespiratory fitness, and whole-body insulin sensitivity. Some subjects even had worsened insulin-sensitivity relative to exercise and placebo instead of metformin. This is not the only study to note similar effects.
-Metformin has also been shown to blunt the hypertrophic effect of resistance exercise and muscle density in a double-blind placebo-controlled study in the elderly.
Now, as far as berberine goes, since that was the topic of this video, not Metformin, we have one study that used 500mg berberine twice daily for 3 months paired with exercise (riding a stationary bicycle
for 20 ā 30 min, 3 to 4 times per week) in subjects with low cardiovascular riskand had quite solid results, which is nice, since these results are much more promising than what we saw with Metformin in healthy/normal exercising subjects IMO. Granted, this study didnāt go as in-depth with adaptations to exercise and whatnot, but still, it showed that it WORKS in healthy/normal subjects, which is nice!
A decrease of body weight and BMI was observed after the runin period. Berberine reduced total cholesterol, triglycerides and LDL cholesterol and increased HDL cholesterol after 3 months from randomization and compared with placebo. After the washout period, lipid profile worsened; afterward, when berberine was reintroduced, lipid profile improved again both compared with the washout period, and with placebo.
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This is where things get a littleā¦shady since weāre talking about non-scheduled but still prescription drugs.
Theorizing here, however.
Most bodybuilders who feel comfortable taking pharmaceutical drugs like metformin may also be taking a myriad of drugs that increase anabolism, in which I doubt there would be such a blunt of hypertrophy.
Anyway, Iām currently running 200mg 3x daily of glucovantage (the dihydroberberine mentioned in the podcast) and Iām losing an unprecented amount of weight while eating slightly above maintenance. Going to lower dose as thatās not the goal and Iām not looking to further increase my intake. Iām a fan so far, going to begin tracking blood sugar very shortly.
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Oh, I see potential utility of Metformin for āchemically assistedā lifters, maybe, I just donāt buy into the hype that you see on a lot of longevity forums and groups recommending everyone and their mother use Metformin, saying that itās the best thing there is for longevity and anti-aging for everyone. For your normal natty gym rat, or even your normal person who exercises regularly but not terribly intensely, I still donāt think Iād recommend Metformin. Berberine though does seem to have utility for these normal people, as Shawn said, and the research seems to suggest too.
Edit: but please also note that Metformin blunted more beneficial adaptations to exercise than simply muscle growth, so Iām not sure how the addition of anabolics would impact these other parameters when paired with exercise. Things like cardiorespiratory fitness and insulin sensitivity; Metformin blunted the positive effects exercise had on these things too.
Looking forward to better products offering Glucovantage in the future as well. The two I see right now seem a bit lackluster
Check these guys out. This was formulated by a pretty great formulator. Have heard incredible reviews
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At its current price point, its not worth using over normal berberine, or really in general given the full dose is going to cost several dollars a day.
If that price goes down to a degree where it is comparable to an equivalent dose of berberine then it might be.
Currently putting the ingrediant in the wait a few month and see if it becomes a better deal.
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Where are you seeing it for purchase raw to get that pricing?
Not raw, just with the current products that offer it, the one I am mainly looking at being genius blood sugar. Costing 1$ per serving at 170 mg a serving, with it being taken 3 times a day.
I am guessing this comes down to genius being a premium brand, but even compared to 1.5 grams of berberine from a good supplier it is very expensive.
The NNB website mentions one to three servings per day at 100mg to 200mg each, so lots of dosing flexibility.
Yeah kind of hard to compare a brand like genius to a single ingredient product
Correct, Iām running 200mg 3x a day but I think itās too much, even at 350ish carbs a day. Iād try this again in bulk mode at 500-600.
Starting to understand the 85mg in DEC glycoshred and evogenās GDA
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